#124 From Science to Spirit: Elisabet Sahtouris
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Michael Reiley: Today we present an anthology episode with evolution biologist, futurist, professor, author, and consultant on Living Systems Design and frequent SAND speaker, 

Elisabet Sahtouris.

Sadly, Dr. Sahtouris passed away in December 2024, and we wanted to highlight and present some excerpts from interviews that she did with SAND over the years and showcase her brilliant mind and her ability to communicate deeply. complex biological science with ease and grace. You can find out more about Elisabet Sahtouris on her website, maintained by her son, Philip.

 Sahtouris, which is S A H T O U R I S. com or find a link in the show notes. In this first clip from the Sand Anthology volume two video series, Elisabet speaks about indigenous science. 

Elisabet Sahtouris: I call indigenous science is more than what they intuited by looking inward to through their dreams and intuitions and so forth, but also what they have studied in the outside world. And I've had indigenous friends say, you know your western science works on the outside material world and your eastern science is working on the inside, the mind and the discipline of the mind and so forth.

But we indigenous people can give you the third leg of the stool so that you can have it stand up solidly because we work with the inside and the outside. We see them the way light and dark or night and day or anything. They're just the two faces of reality. And so they work both with the inside to the point where in many indigenous cultures they could commune without communicating in great detail.

They could do direct mind to mind transmission and had a spoken language for when that was needed. They knew the eternal now and they knew the linear time. They studied, oh, your average Amazon kid probably can identify 300 species of bees by body shape, by behavior, by what it might be good for medicinally, and so forth.

Very scientific evidence gathered over time. They have a botany, they have an astronomy, they've watched the stars for thousands of years. They know the patterns, they know the sequences. They have medicine, they have physics, they have biology, they have agronomy. Half the food eaten in the world today was developed by the indigenous people of the Andes.

the corn, all of the amaranth grains, all of the potatoes, all of the tomatoes, eggplants, veggie things of that kind. Huge scientific contributions. A very scientific agriculture in which fields were designated in the, Sacred Valley of Peru, for instance, at all the altitudes, trying out the different seeds so that they would know what grew in which climate best and could export those to that part of the Inca Empire where they would grow best.

Very sophisticated sciences. We're not talking about just stumbling on facts because they were around for so long, but looking for information and systematically testing their hypotheses about that. Whatever it was, and coming to conclusions that were, worked very well, and kept those cultures alive for much longer than any of our contemporary cultures are lasting.

We seem to be moving into a speed up here.

Michael Reiley: In our next clip, Elisabet reflects on the origins of a living universe arising from cosmic consciousness.

Elisabet Sahtouris: was taught the western science story of evolution which of course is the Darwinian model and according to the western science the earth forms in a material universe that has no purpose or no meaning. through accidental collisions over time and aggregates of subatomic particles into atoms and atoms into molecules and so on.

And I changed my basic assumptions about science somewhere along the line and adopted the concept of a living universe. Now, one of the advantages of a living universe, besides the fact that almost all human cultures have seen it that way, is that you don't have to work out how to get life out of non life, or consciousness out of non consciousness, or intelligence out of non intelligence.

Because you make the basic fundamental assumption from the beginning that it all starts with cosmic consciousness. Aliveness, intelligence, all inherent in this source consciousness within which matter arises. Within that non duality, the dualities of matter arise like waves on a sea. In fact, one of my favorite creation stories is the Hindu story that it starts with an unlimited smooth sea of milk, the ultimate Big Mama issue and kind of metaphor.

And within that sea of milk, a little wavelet forms and forever after, it's torn between loving its unique identity and wanting to merge back into the safety, the security of the Big Mama. And I think that is the central tension that drives all evolution. The part and the whole. The one and the other.

Many other wavelets form. The wavelets look at each other and eventually forget that they're part of the sea. So they come to see themselves as disconnected individuals. Now, in Western science, as I was taught it in the Darwinian theory life comes out of the sea. collisions of molecules and stuff in the soup of the early planet Earth.

Once the lava keeps coming up and steaming off and gassing off and falling back to Earth as rain and, the planet gets coated in water and all that. Kind of story that we know and then we talk about the primeval sea in which molecules had lightning bolts striking them and all kinds of activities going on there energetically until the molecules somehow come together and form the first ancient bacteria.

And that is thought to be now almost four billion years ago. In my view, nature is all alive and intelligent and conscious down to subatomic particles, all consciousness, all within consciousness. That's the Vedic science basic assumptions, whereas the assumptions I was taught, non living universe turned into living universe.

Objectivity. We can study nature from a distance as scientists without affecting it. And, in the Vedic view, you would say, no, it's all self organizing, it's all participatory. You are in the universe, and everything you do, even observation, affects what you're observing. I work with these different worldviews, these different fundamental assumptions.

And we have been talking about this for a long time in Western science. Many of us switch to the Vedic assumptions. science, especially in the 50s and 60s when many young intellectuals went off to India and came back with these ideas of a very different way of seeing our universe. And they brought back gurus with them and people learned yoga and got interested in this other science, a science that was much more about studying the mind, the inside, than what Western science was doing, which was looking outward at a material world and how to understand it.

I think those of us who made that shift, and some of us are here at this conference decided that the world made more sense to us using the Vedic assumptions. Now, you cannot do science without having basic assumptions. You have to have some notion of what kind of a universe you're making theories of.

So you have to decide, is this a non living universe or a living universe? Is this a a universe in which consciousness gives rise to matter, or a universe in which matter gives rise to consciousness? Is it an objective universe to be studied, or is it participatory so that I affect what I'm looking at?

These are all choices of cultural beliefs about the universe. So from my point of view, it's wrong that Western science gained the hegemony which enabled it to say there can only be science. There can't be different sciences. Science is science. And as a result, Western science is taught in universities all over the world.

Regardless of whether the culture had a science of its own, it gets taught Western science in graduate school, and even undergraduate school, and even in grammar schools. My work in the world now is to try to bring out the fact that science is necessarily built on unproven assumptions, which are all actually cultural beliefs of a particular time in human history, and a particular culture in human history.

Western science begins in Europe with the Enlightenment, with the power base shifting from church and state to the new business entrepreneurs who took in the science that church rejected and made it a powerful ally for its engineering spinoffs. And then the secular state gets created and the church and state has lost power, the entrepreneurs and science have gained power.

So it is decreed in a secular state that there should be a division between religion and politics. And science gets the mandate to tell the new creation story that the church had told before. So that's just a historical trajectory that enabled science to become very powerful in terms of telling the story people believe in as Christians.

What kind of universe do I live in? What is it like for people to be in it? How can it be studied? How can we know how it works? All of that stuff that science does for us. But you get very different stories and different theories if you start with different assumptions. So I would like to see a consortium of sciences in the world In which we can revive Islamic science and Vedic science and Taoist science and indigenous sciences, all of which have contributed enormously to human knowledge, and let them have dialogue with each other, such as the religions do.

We now have world parliaments of religion, and they are learning to get along with each other, and to respect each other, and we could be doing the same thing with science. Now, if you think of a science based on the concept of a living universe versus one built on the concept of a non living universe, you see some serious differences arising.

In Western science, with its non living universe assumptions, all biology is treated as mechanism. And a microbiologist is looking at the mechanism of DNA and the protein and how these things operate like machinery in your cell. And so they started to do genetic engineering. treated it as if this genome were like a machine in which you could unscrew one thing and stick something else in and then you would get the result that you wanted, the way an engineer would with a machine if he understood the machine.

Unfortunately, Western science doesn't understand biology very well because it's not used to thinking like that. in terms of life. It's used to thinking in terms of machinery. And so when they started doing genetic engineering for a long time, the genes that they implanted would simply disappear. And the companies like Monsanto learned not to give any guarantees about them because they couldn't guarantee the harvest.

Eventually they learned how to crazy, shoot them in under pressure and crazy glue them into the genome so that the genome couldn't reject them. A living system cleans up errors. It's feminine in that regard. It's always house cleaning, right? If the mutations that happened in your genome didn't get cleaned up, you wouldn't last very long.

So I came to see evolution not as being dependent on these mutations, but as being dependent on the intelligent proteins that could select which genes should be put into use when and how. So we have had over half a century actually of western science results in biology that show that genomes get rearranged when there's any kind of a crisis.

And this was Barbara McClintock, who finally got a Nobel Prize for it after being called crazy. And a lot of people since then, wonderful teams in England, that have shown us that life is highly intelligent, that it self organizes, that it maintains itself, unlike machinery, which has to be repaired all the time.

If you want generations of computers, you, they don't give birth to each other. They're, occasionally Western science uses a living metaphor like that, but what they mean is somebody has reinvented a new form of computer. So I spent many years distinguishing between mechanism and organism in order to understand how life works.

If we had a science based on the ideas of a living universe that could talk as equals With Western science rooted in its mechanical metaphors that science, the living science, let's say, could show them why it's wrong to mess around in the genome the way they are, why it is not producing good results.

Unfortunately, we live in a market economy where the market is much more important than the scientific demonstration of improvement in life. And as far as I know, there is as yet not a single instance of a genetically engineered organism that is improving life. Take the case of yellow rice, for example, that they say now is going to give the drug can be implanted in the rice that will prevent the children from going blind, who are going blind now in parts of Asia.

If they hadn't rearranged their whole food production ecosystems, the children wouldn't have gone blind in the first place. The way to cure the blindness is to go back to organic farming. The yellow rice is like a patchwork that you're trying to put on top of a problem that you created when you didn't have to create it.

That's just an example of why I think we need a consortium of sciences in the world.

Michael Reiley: In our next clip, Dr. Sahtouris speaks to the question, is consciousness evolving?

Elisabet Sahtouris: I do believe that consciousness evolves in the same sense that in biology, what we see as evolution is from the simple to the complex, and then the complex re simplifying and forming new complexities. And I think exactly the same situation probably prevails in Big Mind, which starts out in total aware bliss and nothingness, no thingness.

And then dreams up worlds, and these worlds become complex and they take on a life of their own. And maybe all that is, just wants to see itself and observe itself through all the points of consciousness that arise within it. I see every point in time space as a unique perspective on the whole, but reaches to the whole.

Our consciousnesses have no boundary. We can go straight into the deep waters where eternal consciousness is still present. perfectly unruffled, and then the higher you get up in the ocean, the more it's boiling up and the, we're on the surface waves of it. So we can go down into that utter stillness, that bliss, that light, that love that we try to describe in words that is nameless, and it's still the same universe.

The turmoil and the stillness are all part of the universe. We can play any music we want on the keyboard of vibrations from matter to spirit.

Michael Reiley: And in our final, longer segment, Elisabet is in conversation with activist and facilitator Lynn Murphy from SAND's 2020 Dying and Living Summit, recorded during the COVID and pandemic lockdowns.

And the title of this conversation is Dying to Live, Evolution through Recycling.



Elisabet Sahtouris: I'm very interested in this relationship between dying and living as an evolution biologist.

Because in nature, of course, there's a great deal of dying going on and without it, things couldn't live. Actually, that quote by Anaximanderos the philosopher, was Everything that forms in nature incurs a debt which it must repay by dissolving so that other things may form. In other words, it clearly states dying is essential to living.

If we just kept creating new things, if nature just kept creating new things without recycling, it wouldn't work at all, would it? And all of us have actually had a good deal of experience with dying all our lives. Because, as a biologist, I'm very aware that my cells are constantly dying. Thousands, maybe millions every day die out of these 50 trillion or so that make up the you.

And the you who you were when you were five or even ten years ago Is gone. It's dead. It's died It has been recycled And so everything about you Actually is new in every split second Because while they say on the whole you have a completely new body every seven years the fact is that the cells are completely dying that rarely, but the molecules within the cells and the atoms within those and the particles with those, each of those dies to live faster and faster.

So technically we are completely remade in every split second. So lots of experience ourselves with death. Now, science became our authority on reality, as you all know, in this audience. And when it split off from the church, it made a kind of deal with the church that the church gets all of the spiritual soul stuff and science sticks with the physical.

I like to use the metaphor of a keyboard. For reality, for the universe, for yourself, anything within the universe is made up of vibrations. It's the one of the few things that quantum physics and Einsteinian or Standard model physics agrees on is that the universe is all vibrations, right? And of course, the quantum physicists couldn't explain their own results through the worldview that they were trained in, the Western scientific worldview.

And all of the founding fathers of quantum science publicly acknowledged in writing that they had taken their worldview. from Vedic science in India in order to explain what they found when they broke through physical reality into the non physical. Now, I like to use the model, the metaphor of a keyboard, therefore, for the universe.

A keyboard of vibrations. Imagine you're sitting at a piano keyboard that extends infinitely in both directions. And the low keys, the denser vibrations, are the realm of matter. And in the middle keys, I call that the section of the keyboard that is about energy, like electromagnetic energy. Western science originally only believed in matter.

And then as they were able to measure electromagnetic energy, at least certain aspects of it, it was brought into their reality and it can, and Einstein then showed us that you can transpose this music up and down the keyboard. That matter is energy. Energy is matter. That's what EMC squared is about. So they get stuck on the keyboard at around zero point energy because part of the Western science axioms or worldview basic belief system concept of the universe is that to be real, it must be measurable with our physical instruments and our physical instruments, are incapable of measuring what's up in the higher keys, which is where mind, spirit, soul consciousness is.

All of these vibrations, like waves on the surface of a deep ocean of consciousness, of the non physical. Western science has trouble getting up, deriving the whole keyboard from its end. But eastern sciences, including Vedic and Taoist and many indigenous sciences, start at the high end of the keyboard, looking at the same universe.

And they, so they start in the field of cosmic consciousness, let's call it. The I am, the all that is. The Eastern scientists look at it from the high end of the keyboard, and so they derive energy and matter just by slowing the vibrations.

Now, this is an oversimplified model, but all models are, of course, oversimplified. What it does show you is that we don't have to integrate science and spirit. They've never been separated. And all of nature plays this whole keyboard, including you. You're not a body with a mind, with a soul. You're a body mind soul.

You can play the whole keyboard from where you are in a physical body. When we die as a whole person, we lose that, the low keys, but we continue to play in the very large realm of the high keys, of the non physical. One of the worst things we've done to ourselves in our Western science is the authority for how things are since it took over from the church during the Enlightenment, right?

And so as long as it has told us That death and life are something very different and something to be afraid of because You're gone when you die Oh, I don't want to be gone that we all want to you know be there. So I take it to have You infinite longevity without needing a body all the time.

I'm also a believer in reincarnation. So I'm aware that you don't have to do everything in a single lifetime and that we get chances to do it over and over in different ways. I like to think that our entity or soul is like a a lotus flower, where the entity is the flower, and each petal is one of the vibrations.

Because there are two interesting things that my science that I was trained in and which has become the dominant global science, as we all know doesn't allow for multiple incarnations at once. It couldn't handle that because it ignores the fact that it is always now that none of us have ever been out of now.

So in deep reality, it's always now when you can have a meditation. I used to do this playing a drum and call in other incarnations to sit with me and say, am I doing my part? Am I on track here for what we are jointly trying to explore in this amazing universe? Eastern and Western sciences can have completely different views, one saying matter gives rise to consciousness, the other saying consciousness gives rise to matter, because they don't realize they're playing on the same keyboard.

So I find that a very useful metaphor. And I love the idea that everything has to dissolve in nature for other things to form. I think that's the most amazing single line explanation of biological evolution. And it's not so easy being an evolution biologist once you play the whole keyboard, once it's always now.

How do you do a linear timeline? Linear time is absolutely essential to our physical world We couldn't make plans. I wouldn't be here now and none of you would be here all at the same time on this device on these various devices That bring us together if we didn't have a timeline to work with in, in it.

These are just a few basics that I wanted to get across at the beginning. And now, Lynn, you can ask me whatever you like and put in your two cents if you want. And then we'll go to audience questions after a little conversation between us. Thank you so much for that. I was reading when I was reading this, and I love to hear about the keyboard and the different resonances and what we can perceive it or what we can't at those, the higher notes, so to speak.

Lynn Murphy: And I love that. Really appreciate your embracing the contradictions in so much of it and finding a way through again and again. And I think my, one of the questions that, that I have is around this, perhaps the metaphor you've also been using of this time that we're living in of a lot of dying and And I guess it's a simple question, in a way, of what are you seeing that we need to get through this crystal less stage for something to come on the other side?

What's, I guess I'm asking a little bit, what is dying itself? And I don't mean the what as in the species, I actually mean the what, the concept of dying. Maybe start there and then speak a little bit about what is alive for you in this metaphor of what's dying in this Crystal list right now to get to some 

Elisabet Sahtouris: yes you're referring of course to the butterfly story, which I originally Got from Nori huddle in her beautiful little book butterfly and which talks about the butterfly the predatory caterpillar eating hundreds of times of its weight every day as it chomps its way through the ecosystem, which made, makes a good metaphor for our global economy.

And then getting so bloated, it hangs itself up to go to sleep and its skin forms A chrysalis, it hardened the skin hardens. Unlike silkworms, which skin cocoons butter butterflies are made from caterpillars, hardened skins, chrysalis. And within that chrysalis, what? Biologists call imaginal cells from the word imago, which means these, call them stem cells that have been in the skin of the caterpillar, hiding tucked away in there all through the caterpillar's life because of some ancient merger of a creepy crawly thing and a flippy floppy thing in evolution.

These metamorphosing insects have this dual life where the one life has to die for the other one to be born. And so the stem cells come out, these imaginal cells, which we use as a metaphor for all of us who are world changers, who want to build a new, lighter on the earth global economy, a butterfly world.

And that whole metamorphosis is a wonderful metaphor. It's better than the old Phoenix rising from the ashes, which implies everything has to break down completely before the new can be built. So we can see that the imaginal cells are building the butterfly while the caterpillar is still dissolving.

And so we are living through a great dying right now. And this COVID crisis is a, is in a sense of metaphor within the whole dying of our global economy, that this huge thing that we have built that's behaving like a caterpillar. And within that, we find imaginal cells linking up and forming all of these Eco villages and intentional communities and local living economies, all of these things that are more in line with nature that understand how you move from a linear destructive ecology or economy to a holistic recycling, cycling economy.

And as an evolution biologist, I discovered a maturation cycle in evolution where species start out very competitive and through a lot of hostilities being very creative in its inventions. This goes back to the first bacteria that had earth's surface. to themselves for the half of evolution, two billion years, linear time, and then formed the cooperatives that became the cells that we are made of.

And when those cells were first formed, they were new on the planet. So they had to go through a long process. youthful mode of competition before they built multi celled creatures as their cooperatives. That took another billion years. So we see this repeating cycle in evolution where the mature phase is highly cooperative.

And of course we humans live cooperatively in cities up to billions of people. Living or, hundreds of millions of people living in cities, billions of us united in things like technology and cooperate, space cooperation and financial cooperation and so many ways that we cooperate all day long.

And yet we were given only the Darwinian story, not the cooperative part of the story. So again, to me the dying of the caterpillar. Is welcome if you get a caterpillar, a butterfly out of it. One of my favorite cartoons is a couple of caterpillars looking up at a butterfly, and one caterpillar says to the other, You'll never get me up in one of those things.

Famous last words, eh? I don't know if that has answered your question Lynn but we are living through a great dying, and you can look at the COVID crisis in the same way as we looked at other things from either end of the keyboard. You can look at it from the matter end where we're talking about viruses and masks and respirators and hospitals and doctors and nurses and vaccines and all those things.

Or you can look at it from the high end and say, maybe this was our sole agreement, knowing that we had to lock ourselves up to put ourselves in a bardo or whatever you wanna call it, in order for Earth to start healing and for us to change our ways of living on earth. So I like to think that we have perhaps done this as an intentional sole agreement.

But if we, if that is the way we're going to look at it, then we really have to get serious about how do we come out of this or will we be let out of this crisis? And if not, how will we behave? Very big questions for us to answer now. Yeah, thank you for that. I yeah leads me to so many different questions, but I will I'll ask maybe one more and then ask for others to come out and Join us in this conversation and I'm thinking about a couple of different things and one in your bio you said that you're a great grandmother of five And I was thinking about you know What would be the wisdom that you would want to pass on to them?

Like what would be the compass? that you would give to your great grandchildren or what do you imagine if you were to give them a kaleidoscope, little glimpses into some sort of adjacent future, you might gift your great grandchildren right now. Yes I actually wrote an essay for a new book by the evolutionary leaders in which I wrote a letter to my fifth grade grandchild who is now two years old for her to read when she's 16.

And so I figured by that time I will be gone. And her generation will have to pick up the pieces that we have turned this world into. The difficult situations of the climate change and which is to me the biggest thing on our human agenda. And not being taken nearly seriously enough. And one of the pieces of advice I gave her was that I would understand completely her generation having a great deal of anger at what they have inherited and that anger can be a healthy emotion that you can transmute into something else.

And it came from a poem That I was written to me back during the Vietnam War when I was beating my head against the wall and anguish and agony and anger at napalm children in the first televised war in history and not knowing what to do with that. And the line in the poem was somewhere the tears and the agony are stored into the chest of thunder.

Okay. Somewhere the tears and the agony are stored into the chest of thunder. That was a message to me saying, Energy is energy. Emotion is energy. You can transform a negative emotion into positive action. You can become thunder in a positive way to work on changes in your world. And so I have taken that as very good advice all my life.

And I think it may be even more important advice coming up for these generations, like my great grandchildren, in the world that they are inheriting. And the other thing I like to say to young people is, even if there is huge decimation of the human population due to this change, we've been through a dozen ice ages as humans, but we've never been through a hot age.

And I remember Jim Lovelock saying to me in the 1980s, pray for the ice age we're due for, Elisabet, because if we're tipping this into a hot age, it'll be harder to survive. And anyway, so I like to say to them, even if his prediction was half a billion humans will survive this, that much dying for life to go on the planet.

And we saw when the humans are locked up, how fast the animals came out of hiding and the skies cleared and the waters cleared. And. Whoa, you should see Hawaii the blue waters of Hawaii without billions of tourists here all the time, littering the beaches and stuff like that. So this great dying in order to live, imagine that you, I say to the young people, You and all your loved ones are among those who are going to be able to navigate through this perfect storm of crises to come out the other side, living in harmony with nature, building an ecosophy, a wise society where The economy is subservient to the ecology rather than the way we do it now, with the ecology being subservient, just a set of resources for our economy.

So it's a wonderful thing that we are living through the truly most important time in human history, where we get to understand why the things we have built have to die. Why our coastal cities will be swallowed up. Why so much death has to happen because of how much destruction we have done that in order to build our butterfly world.

This is what we go through. We must not be afraid of this dying. It's a great disservice science has done to us to make us afraid of this dying. And when I get recycled, I can't wait to help and see what I can do from the non physical, from without having the body that I have to constantly worry about maintaining feeding and all those things.

Can I flit around and help here and there? What can I nudge? So that's how I maintain my optimism despite being a realist about what's going on. 

Lynn Murphy: That's beautiful. In a way I really wanted to ask you about given what is going on with climate change or some would say climate disruption or other things that are happening right now.

And as you've spent your life in. science and in spirituality. And I also know that you've spent considerable amount of time around indigenous cosmology. And one of the questions I did want to ask you, and perhaps you want to answer, or maybe you just did, is what do you see about our ways of being and knowing?

That need to die, but, and are dying for us to actually make it through this metamorphosis. Yeah. So you can either answer that or, but you did just, if I was listening to what really taking into my heart, what you just said, that it's such a humbling way of what about our very perception and way of constructing knowledge has to die.

Elisabet Sahtouris: It's interesting. I'm passionately interested in the Haudenosaunee Native Americans. Who occupied the ground on which the founding fathers of the United States wrote their constitution, almost ignoring the great law of peace that they had made to unify warring tribes, warring nations, six warring nations that had been unified and had kept the peace for many centuries before The Europeans came over and took the land, and only Benjamin Franklin, among those founding fathers, got to know these Indians, these Native Americans, and got to know their law of peace, and was trying to get the his colleagues to incorporate their law of peace into our constitution.

And the only thing that they did take from it was the tripartite government of checks and balances. But they left out women, children, nature, and the future, looking seven generations ahead. I was a co founder of something called the Worldwide Indigenous Science Network. And we learned from many indigenous cultures how, what wonderful sciences they had done.

What, half the food eaten in the world today was developed in the Andes. I went to live in the Andes to study that ancient culture to see how they had done it. It was so scientifically rigorous in its experiments and its plant and agronomy. But they also had this. astronomy and chemistry and biology and physics and everything else in their repertoire, too.

So we're not the only science on the block and I have convened several symposia on the foundations of science to show the different sciences in the world, hoping that we can acknowledge them and whether it's Daoism or Islamic science, Western science, that they should all be a consortium that speaks to each other in cooperative ways and is checks and balances on each other.

I said to Islamic sciences, scientists do something Western science hasn't been able to do a science of economics. There is none in the West. Our economics are based on Strange theories of that competitive individualism and winner take all kinds of philosophy 

Lynn Murphy: thank you so much, Elisabet, for your generosity. Let me close with a Rumi quote. Why do you stay in prison when the door is so wide open? Thank you again for your generosity of sharing for giving us many metaphors and keys to play on and much aloha and yeah Thank you for everyone who joined us here today.